The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees Mr. Fillippo Grandi is currently on a visit to Myanmar and Thailand to assess the ongoing situation of refugees and displaced people.
In an interview in Yangon with Mizzima Editor in Chief Soe Myint, Mr Grandi discussed the UNHCR’s progress and his discussions with the Myanmar authorities on how to deal with these continuing problems.
This is your first visit to Myanmar as the High Commissioner. My understanding is you visited Maungdaw, you visited IDPs in Sittwe, you also had a wide range of discussions including with the government, including with the State Counsellor. Can you tell us the kind of discussions you had with the government and other stakeholders in Myanmar?
The main focus of the discussion was on how to identify solutions to different problems that affect people in different ways in parts of the country, which are of concern to my organization, for example displacement in Sittwe or in Kachin. For example return of refugees from Thailand. For example the problem of the Muslim minority in the Rakhine State, many of whom have left the country and have gone abroad, some of whom are displaced internally.
So we examine this situation in a very balanced manner, in a very constructive manner. We had a discussion on how to move forward, and, like I said, ensure that people enjoy their rights but also we find solutions to these different problems.
I am sure Myanmar makes the UNHCR busy with all the challenges. What would you say are your priorities for Myanmar?
Well from the perspective of my organization the priority would be certainly to find a solution for the almost half a million people from Myanmar that are refugees in other countries – Bangladesh, Thailand, Malaysia and other countries in the region.
Of course solutions, in particular peaceful, voluntary, sustainable return of refugees to Myanmar depends on the situation in the country. That is why we are watching very closely the progress with the peace process that the government is conducting in different parts of the country.
We are also watching very closely the situation in Rakhine State, from which many of those refugees come from. I am very encouraged by what I heard in Nay Pyi Taw from the State Counsellor and different ministers that they will consider very seriously the recommendations of the special advisory commission for Rakhine State headed by former UN Secretary General Kofi Anan, because I think the recommendation that that commission will make, and we are already seeing the preliminary version of those recommendations will be very important in charting a way forward, creating conditions for peaceful coexistence of communities in Rakhine State, which will be very important in finding solutions for external and internal displacement.
We have conflicts especially in Kachin and Shan states and the Myanmar government and other authorities here, including the Myanmar military, have been struggling with the issue of peace building and in the process, and while the process continues, the IDPs, the internally displaced people are there. Reports are saying the numbers are increasing in certain areas. What is your message to the Myanmar government and the Myanmar authorities to looking after the IDPs in Kachin and Shan states?
Internally displaced people all over the world – and we estimate there are more than 40 million of them worldwide – these displaced people are most usually created by internal conflicts in the countries where they exist. And internal conflicts must be resolved in order the internally displaced people to go back to their homes. We see this in Syria, we see this in South Sudan, we see this in Afghanistan, we see this in many countries. We also see it here. It is almost inevitable, different groups fight, sometimes government and non-government entities fight and people are afraid and get displaced.
So we need, first of all, to do political work, not we, not the UNHCR, but the parties to those conflicts need to do political work. That is why the Panglong process is so important because we should not forget that conflicts are not political manifestations but have an impact on civilians. And today’s conflicts are particularly hard on civilians, so one appeal that I would like to make to the parties to these different conflicts that plague the country is that in conducting hostilities, respect civilians. They should not be the victims of military confrontation because if that happens, inevitably you will have more displacement.
The second appeal I would like to make, pending solutions that I hope will come, is allow organizations, national organizations, international organizations like mine, access to people.
We believe that – and I said it yesterday in my meeting in Nay Pyi Taw – that the access that is granted to humanitarian agencies, in Kachin State in particular, is far too little, that if we had that access we could help the people that are fleeing out of fear much more effectively. Pending of course, let me say once again political solutions to the conflicts that will allow them to go back to their homes.
You have been engaged in international cooperation for more than 30 years. With all this experience, if I may, what is your message to the government in bringing this, you mention the access, the internally displaced people, but somehow things are not really working on the ground. I may be wrong but there is not enough assistance being given to them. So what would be your main message to the government here, given all your experience in handling these issues?
The government here is engaged in a very complex transition, as you know much better than me. And I don’t underestimate the huge challenges. Not for a minute. I do not underestimate the huge challenges that the government has to make every day in implementing, in moving forward, that important fundamental transition towards democracy, towards prosperity, towards stability. The challenges are multiple and not just in the military field but also in the economic field, and so forth.
What my appeal is in doing that, in multiplying effort toward those goals, don’t forget displacement, don’t forget there are people outside that need a solution, they are from Myanmar, don’t forget there are people inside who are displaced that need a solution, don’t forget communities like the Muslim community in Rakhine that suffer from marginalization, that need to be included in order to be part of the construction of the nation. That is my strongest appeal.
One good example, and one on which I think we can make fast progress is the Myanmar refugees in Thailand. There is about 100,000 of them in different camps in Thailand. And many of them are ready to come back. And I must say in my discussion with the State Counsellor and several ministers, I got very positive signals that the government is ready to receive them back provided that the return is voluntary, we are also convinced that that is the way it should happen, and of course provided that that return is sustainable, that people come back and don’t become again displaced but live wherever they go back in a sustainable manner with employment, with access to services, with security and so forth.
So that would be a good example of action that we could take in the next few months, in a positive manner to show that there are solutions for displaced people and they are part of nation building.
What is the position of the Thai government on the Burmese refugees, Myanmar refugees, in the camps?
It’s positive. They would also like to find a solution. They have hosted these refugees for a long time and I think they will welcome the information that I will also bring to Thailand where I am going tonight, that we should step up efforts to organize a return of those who want to return. You know we did a test envoy together with the two governments last October, about 71 people. That was to test the procedures, the waters, to see how it can be arranged and I think it was positive and we can build on that to implement more of those returns.
But Thailand is hosting these people and giving them protection, giving them support, donors are also contributing so the situation is favourable to start that operation.
There are reports that many of the refugees in the camps do have concerns, do have worries either for their safety, when they are back in their villages, where there are conflicts, and also for their livelihood, for their normal life back in their own country in Myanmar. How will the UNHCR, the governments of Myanmar and Thailand, make sure that these concerns are answered?
This is a very important matter. Of course, in every situation where people are refugees, especially when they are long-term refugees, they do not know what awaits them when they go back. So I think there are two things to be done. One is to ensure that conditions of return are favourable. This is what the State Counsellor said yesterday in a very clear manner. We cannot return people to unsustainable situations. And I agree with her totally on that. So we need to work together. It may be necessary to make some additional investment in the development of those areas that people go back to, not just for them but also for the communities that are there that we see the population increase because people are returning. That is an important part of the work that we need to do.
And then we need to provide information to the people in Thailand. That is why the UNHCR usually facilitates the contacts between the country of origin, as we call it, Myanmar in this case, and the country of asylum, Thailand in this case, through some mechanism we can put in place to ensure the flow of information and to ensure that people that go back can go back to sustainable situations.
Do you think there will be additional investment from the international community?
I hope and trust that everyone understands that providing resources to solve problems of displacement is a positive gesture. Is an investment not only in the future of the people who return but also an investment in the future of this nation.This is very important. So, from that point of view, those who can put resources will do so if there is a guarantee of durable, sustainable solutions.
What do you think of Bangladesh position on Rohingya refugees who have been stranded there for many years?
Well, of course, the solution for those people lies in Rakhine State, this where they come from so work needs to be done there to create a more peaceful co-existence of the two main communities, the Rohingya themselves and the Rakhine community. Meanwhile, they are hosted by other countries, those that have left and those countries are providing hospitality to these people. I am going myself to Bangladesh after Thailand, and I will discuss with the government further how to best support them in supporting the refugees until there is a solution for them. Hopefully, they can go back peacefully and voluntarily to their country.
How would you try as UNHCR to bring about co-existence and tolerance in Rakhine State because this is a very tough question for Myanmar, the nation, and the people?
This is perhaps the toughest question of all in respect of Rakhine State. It is really an organisation like UNHCR that can achieve that can create the condition ultimately is up to the communities themselves that have to embrace, but much can be done to move in that direction. Measures should be taken to lift some of the restrictions that are affecting the Muslim community like freedom of movement, access to services. And of course, very is the very important verification of nationality to grant citizenship to those that are eligible. These are all recommendations that are included in the report of the Rakhine Advisory Commission that I hope will be implemented as soon as possible. But there is also a lot of work necessary to consult with the communities explain why these measures need to be taken, explain why co-existence is much better than inter-communal fighting in order to achieve prosperity for all. But also we need to invest more, there needs to be much more development assistance provided to Rakhine State, in areas like infrastructure, livelihoods, employment, services, health education, for both communities in an inclusive manner that covers both communities. I know it is easy to say this and complicated to implement, but you have to start somewhere. And Ireally hope the implementation of the recommendations of the Commission will be an important starting point to start moving in the right direction.
There is a security issue in Rakhine State, and security does take over other issues like humanitarian assistance or even reconciliation, what is your message to us in Myanmar?
There is practically no place in the world affected by refugees or forced displacement where the topic of security does come up, and as you said tend to take over the conversation. Unfortunately, insecurity and even terrorism have become such a dangerous occurrence in the lives of many people in many countries. States have a primary responsibility in securing the security of their own people, so definitely that is important. I recommend in responding to insecurity with security tools and instruments don’t forget investing in development in an inclusive fashion, dialogue between communities, communicating with those communities in a clear manner, explaining what confidence building measure is put in place, lifting some of the constraints that cause marginalization these are also all investment in security. A community that feels included that does not feel disenfranchised is a community less likely to be tempted by any irrational response, any dangerous response, that will cause more insecurity. So, this also is an investment in security, and we need states to think long-term in this manner as well.
I have one personal question. The world has witnessed more challenging issues with refugees and migration in many parts of the world, especially in Europe, as High Commissioner for Refugees are you able to sleep well facing these challenges every day?
Well sometimes sleeping is difficult, but I have to sleep a little bit otherwise I cannot tackle the challenges of the next. But you are absolutely right it is very worrying. Unfortunately the harshness and persistence of conflicts, the violations of human rights, the impact on civilians in these situations, the hostility that is growing in many countries towards refugees, migrant, simply foreigners, these are all phenomenon of great concern and paradoxically they growing in a world where mobility is also growing and perhaps because of that, because globalisation has made us all stay closer together and yet this has created feeling of unease, of malaise, which really worries me most. However, I hope our work to ensure refugees are protected and especially our work to try and find solutions for problems of displacement, the main focus of my visit here in Myanmar; I hope these will be contributions to move the tide in another direction. If that happens, I will sleep a little better.
I was a refugee in India, and under UNHCR protection for over twenty years, I had hoped I would be able to come back and have. Can refugees still have that kind of hope to go back to their countries of origin safely and with their dignity?
And voluntarily, one should add. I think if you analyse the patterns of displacement 85%, we estimate, have fled to the country next to theirs. And if you take the 66 million refugees and displaced most of them are internally displaced so they fled to near their homes what does that mean? Well in some cases it is because they cannot go further, but in most cases, it is because they do not want to go too far because their dream their hope is to go back home. That is why it is important to address conflicts, create conditions for those people to go back home. I think most of them hope to do that and is our responsibility, our collective responsibility, to create the conditions to fulfil their hope.
Is there anything you would like to add?
Just to thank the country for providing me, personally, for five days with extraordinary hospitality and I would encourage everybody to look at these problems with tolerance and vision because that is the way you build countries and nations.